Working Through

Great discussion at the C&C group last night.  See the comments for the FRAMES 2008 Post below to catch up with the discussion from that night if you haven't already, then come back here.  Don't worry, I'll wait for you.

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So we got to talking last night about this question: from what kinds of things do I need freedom, and where do I find it in my life?  Specifically we addressed those kinds of things that we believe about ourselves.  Let me first say that these are beautiful people.  I was so humbled last night by everyone's heart.  I am inspired and refreshed this morning.  Here are some paraphrased statements from last night:

"I feel free when I remember that I don't have to be 'good' to be loved."

"I feel free when I remember that I don't have to be what everybody else is or do what everybody else is doing in order to enjoy life or be worthwhile."

"I feel free when I remember that I don't have to be or do everything perfectly."

"I feel free when i realize that my worth and identity are not determined by what I do."

"I feel free when I realize that I don't have to do it all by myself."

"I feel free when I can serve other people."

I thank God for all of these statements because so many people are laboring under their own heavy weights, and the sooner we can reevaluate our own worth as not being derived from what we do, how well we do it, the net result of our failures and triumphs, the sooner we can begin to live with a sense of freedom.  I believe that is what Jesus wants for all of us: to be able to bring everything that we are, the good parts and the ugly parts, and feel safe with him and with other people.

Comments?  Thoughts?  Rants, Raves?

-Chris

Comments

[Nathan Schaefer]

I’m sorry I missed it last night, it sounds like you guys touched on some interesting stuff.

Over the past few weeks my mind has been trying to wrap itself around the idea of frames. I have had many questions about frames and since I missed my opportunity to pose the questions last night, I will attempt to pose the questions now, and hope for some of those great insights that I always get the luxury of when I actually attend C&C.

My question goes as follows: If I am able to expose one of the frames in which I view God and then change it, does that render me frame free, or does it just mean that I have changed the frame from frame X to frame Y? In other words, is it possible to view God without a frame? Are frames a necessary tool which God has given us to view him, or does he desire for us to see him without a frame?

I know that I have put innumerable frames around God, many of which I feel I can’t get rid of because eliminating the frame that I have will just lead to another frame. Does it take a deeper connection with God to view him without a frame? Could a monk who has retired to the desert to worship God for the rest of his life view God without a frame? What does it take?

One last thought; this is kind of deep so bear with me… If we get to a point in which we think we are viewing God without a frame, is that thought not a frame in itself? I.e.: The pride of assuming we can view God frame free will become a frame of pride which we use to view God.
I would love to hear what anyone thinks about some of these questions.

Nathan

[College and Career Group 1-27-08]

Hey Nate,
For me, it's not about eliminating my frame itself, only allowing it to change.

We were talking last night, for example, about good and evil in the world. It was brought up how often we rationalize evil in the world (death, pain, etc) by saying that God allowed it to happen SO THAT good could come from it. But if we operate out of that frame (that idea, concept, picture of how God works), then it brings up some other questions that are more problematic. For example, if God's tally of good and evil in the world looks like a banker's book, where some sort of "balance" has to be maintained (i.e. Eastern Philosophy), then how does that fit with our image of god as all-powerful (isn't he powerful enough to have made the good things happen without the pain?), and as a good and loving god (why would he allow suffering in the first place?).

The result of this discussion is that our frame becomes expanded. Because we can't reconcile what we know about our loving all powerful God with the image of a banker god who doles out good and evil based on some eternal ledger, we're forced to amend our frames to fit the following statements:

1. God can use bad to bring about good.
2. Bad things happen, and we don't know why.

I think the important thing is that we're open to letting our frame change.

I think we're also seeing the repercussions of a "frozen frame" in the Christian church in America. Because the church has reacted to modernity's demands for an empirical faith (i.e. one that can be proven via scientific means), it's shrunken, it's voice has become stale, and it's become unable to converse in the world conversation. What we as a Church need to do is be unafraid of hard questions, and allow our frame to change.

My two cents.

But I don't think it's about abandoning a frame altogether. Maybe the better question is, how can my frame... my view of God, my understanding about him and myself and other people... be open to change?

[Aaron H]

I AM SO PEEVED that I missed last Sunday's talk!

-My discovery was, that if I can trust God, to the greatest extent, He WILL provide for me... It'll take some time to pry my hands open, mind you, but the fact that I am aware of it, and have begun to believe it has already changed a lot of how I look at things.

- I sense God and his will on a fairly regular basis... Although I'm not always sure it's him, and not just me paraphrasing his call. Anyway, my question is...
Does that relationship EVER reach a point where you can hear his call and KNOW what it is?
Or do you have to act on faith to do his will all the time... I'm willing to try both, but I must admit I'm not sure I could live on faith alone.

[Charlie]

In reply to #2 (bad things happen we don't know why.)

There are some things that we can say about this statement.

-God is pure 100% good, not a spec of evil or ill intent in him.

-Pain, torment, terror, Sin do not originate from God.

-If it is not of God it is of Satan.

-The world is Satan's. We are bathed in Sin, and it's because of the "great deceiver" and his shinanigan's in eden.

I think a lot of people tend to forget that Satan and his demons are just as real as Jesus. And although Satan cannot hold a eyelash to gods glory/power ect... He does have power.

And I can most certainly tell you it isn't used for wholesome tasks.

So until the second coming and I'm chilling with Jesus in my ressurected body, I won't forget that Satan has influence here.

I don't know if this stayed on topic, but I thought I would just start talking. :)

-Charlie

[Chris Clark]

Aaron,
What do you think it means to live everyday by faith? What does it mean to you if someone were to ask you to "make this decision by faith," rather than by other means?

I suppose the first thing that came to me, after those questions, was this: does "knowing" the will of God mean being without doubt about a certain directive or path for my life, or is it God's will that I make decisions that make the best use of what talents God has given me to pursue life and bring heaven to earth?

Ok, I think I need to post on this. You've inspired me, Aaron. :-)

[Chris Clark]

Hey Charlie, I'm wondering, just let me play Devil's advocate here: why would an all powerful God *allow* the devil to have that kind of influence?

This question is one i feel I have half answered, and still bothers me.

[Charlie]

Chris,

Because (Depending on your views on predestination)

we have the choice to choose him, and if we choose god we have nothing to fear from him.

Or if you believe that we are elect again you have nothing to worry about.

I doubt these answers help, but again, Satan only has power if we reject God, yes sin will still exsist in our lives, but we have our redemption through Jesus to take care of that.

I don't know if thats a cop-out answer, but It helps me.

I don't know, without sin/Evil, would we appreciate the grace/love god gives us?

I don't know if thats the right way to look at it, Im just shooting answers out.

I can ask jesus personally when I go see him if you want :P (haha now thats a Cop-out lol)

I'll try to find some scripture to better answer.

-Charlie

[Charlie]

Chris,

here is some scripture:

As with Job, God tests the character of every human being. Paul wrote, "We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts" (1Thessalonians 2:4, NIV). Moses explained to the ancient Israelites, "Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. He humbled you, causing you to hunger (a form of suffering) and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord" (Deuteronomy 8:2-3, NIV).

God allows mankind to learn-partly by firsthand experience-that the only way of life that will work is the way of life He reveals in His Word, the Bible. That lesson will not be complete until all of humanity has learned that "every word" of God's revealed instructions is vital to our physical, mental and spiritual well-being (Matthew 4:4; Deuteronomy 5:29). No alternative way of life achieves God's purpose or ultimately leads us to happiness.

od created mankind to be like Him, to rule-have dominion-over His creation. To learn to properly exercise such a level of responsibility, man must first learn how to discern right from wrong, good from bad and the wise from the foolish. Learning real wisdom involves learning how to make wise choices. From the beginning God pointed out the right way, but He allowed humans to be exposed to and make foolish choices.

God allowed Satan, the epitome of evil, to enter the Garden of Eden and discuss his view of life with Adam and Eve. They then had to make a choice. They chose to follow Satan rather than God. Satan's tragic delusion of mankind has been the result.

However, when Jesus Christ returns to earth, God will remove the delusion of Satan. God then will begin, on a grand scale, the process of reversing the damage Satan has done. Eventually none of the devil's influence will remain.

Mankind can then review thousands of years of tragic history and compare it with the blessings of Christ's rule. The Bible reveals that when this occurs the overwhelming majority of humanity will reject Satan's deceptions and enthusiastically embrace every word of God.

God is in control, but He has allowed Satan to dominate humanity for two basic reasons. First, Adam and Eve, our first parents, chose Satan's domination over them. Second, God wants all of humanity to learn that "the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps" (Jeremiah 10:23).

Here is some syuff I found, Hope it helps.